Podcast: “Organizations must see a return on investment”

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Posted: 01/02/2018

Marcin Nowakowski, chief financial officer and chief administration officer at BNP Paribas, Poland Operations, joins us from the RPA and AI BFSI summit, where he shares that as a CFO, he is in communication with executives during the budget process throughout execution and specifically during process improvement projects.

He notes that 10 year process excellence projects still occur but average projects are timed in two or three year segments and by then the organization must see a return on investment.

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(The following is an automated and unedited transcript. Please be aware that errors may be present.)

Interviewer: Seth Adler

Guest: Marcin Nowakowski

Seth Adler:  From BNP Paribas, [Marcin Nowakowski 00:00:03] joins us. First, some supporters to thank and thank you for listening. This episode is supported by the Process Excellence Network. PEX Network is a global community for process professionals, business leaders, and executives, who want to improve their businesses through process and operational excellence. With a global membership of $130,000 plus and a burgeoning global [00:00:30] portfolio of live events, webinars, and networking opportunities, PEX Network provides access to experience process professionals and industry insider insight. Go to pexnetwork.com to find out more.

This episode is also supported by OPEX Exchange, America's only executive level OPEX and business transformation exchange. OPEX Exchange is June 27th-29th, in Chicago. Key themes this year include a much greater focus on transformation [00:01:00] and the growing importance of digital within enterprise. Cognitive capabilities are changing the game and those who invest and implement now, can get way ahead now. Get the connections and knowledge you need, go to pexnetwork.com to register.

CFO/CAO of BNP Paribas, Poland Operations, Marcin Nowakowski, joins us from the RPA and AI BFSI summit, where he shares that as a CFO, he of course, hears from executives during the budget process throughout execution and specifically during process improvement projects, [00:01:30] like automation. In the grand scheme of things and based on a career in finance, he notes that if an executive ever presents him with a story without numbers, it's simply a dream. It's not a business case. While 10 year timeline projects still do occur, average projects are timed out in two or three year segments, meaning, it's by then that the organization must be paid back. This is the case, as it's so difficult to foresee the actual future, three years hence, with technological advancements like RPA and AI happening at warp speed.

Welcome to PEX Network on [B2B IQ 00:01:59], [00:02:00] I'm your host, Seth Adler. Download episodes on pexsnetwork.com or through our app on iTunes, within the iTunes podcast app and Google Play or wherever you currently get your podcasts. Marcin Nowakowski.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah, that's-

Seth Adler:  Marcin Nowakowski -

Marcin Nowakowski:  Point for you.

Seth Adler:  Yeah, it's Marcin Nowakowski.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Point for you-

Seth Adler:  Point for me, I'll take it. I'll take it. Everybody always wants to talk to the CFO. Everybody always needs money from the CFO, right? They come every day, they knock on the door, "Can I have money for this? Can I have money for that?" Is that true or no?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well there are two things to discuss about [00:02:30] truth. First of all, CFO/CAO for BNP Paribas Security Services, Poland Operations-

Seth Adler:  Right-

Marcin Nowakowski:  Not such a big fish, as a CFO BNP Paribas. That's seven lay-

Seth Adler:  Fair enough-

Marcin Nowakowski:  Seven layers above. But yes, it's still true. So it's true, especially, during the budget process when you need to plan the money. And then during execution when you monitor how you spend your money. And especially for when we discuss process improvement, [00:03:00] it's especially important for new projects, like you've got RPA implementation and you need to build a business case, find the money, utilize the money you save. So I would say, yes, it's still banging on the doors.

Seth Adler:  Yeah, banging on the doors. So if you don't mind, just tell us what to do. Tell us how to ask. Tell us what not to ask for. So in other words, when someone ... You know and a business leader, you know, a high level person comes in, when [00:03:30] do you know that they don't have the information that you need? What do you need to make a decision?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well, first of all, I'm very fact-based person. So I need numbers to see and I need a clear business case and the return on investment, whether it's financial or not, that's a different story, but it needs to have a solid baseline explanation and then it's fine with me. If it's just a story [00:04:00] without numbers, then it's a dream, it's not a business case.

Seth Adler:  Yeah. So cup of cappuccino, all frost, right?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah, yeah.

Seth Adler:  So the business case, how much do I need to prove that out in a certain timeframe? In other words, if I say, "Marcin Nowakowski, it's going to be fine. 10 years down the line, we're good."

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well it depends on the projects. There are projects which are justified for 10 years existence-

Seth Adler:  Such as?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well if you buy a new building, [00:04:30] then you don't look at three months operations. We look at 50 years or 10 years or whatever, or if you-

Seth Adler:  Even an ERP system? The ERP system?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Even in ERP system, you need to look ... Well when we look at history, you need to look for longer periods-

Seth Adler:  Right-

Marcin Nowakowski:  So there are projects which will have the long lifespan, but usually in today's environment, it's not so common. So you look more like two years, three years perspective. It's also quite difficult to [00:05:00] foresee future, even for three years. So it's difficult to build this business cases in credible way for 5 years, 10 years. So I would say, preferable lifespan would be 2, 3 years. Data can be found for that periods usually. And that's how you build the business case, which can be credible with me.

Seth Adler:  I got to give you data, so that I can build my business case. Got to make the initial investment. So that has to come out [00:05:30] of my budget from this year, right? I can't ask you for this extra fund to go, you know, to go play a bit in automation, right?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well now you come from to a different perspective. Now you go to the project budget. And as a project manager or as a project owner, if you wish, you always have a contingencies. You always have a ... And in the beginning of the [00:06:00] project's quite wide, like 20% or something. And honestly, as a sponsor or project leader, you can play with this. So that's quite a lot of meat there, I would say-

Seth Adler:  Yeah, that's built in. You already have it.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah-

Seth Adler:  Yeah, which is why folks love RPA, right? This is going to be so quick, and it's ... Oh, so cheap. Is that true?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well, I don't think it's true for buyers and it's not true for providers. [00:06:30] So if I talk to people from the industry, it usually takes months and years to bring in the automation to life because we live in a complex world. We live in a global companies, which employ thousands of people, hundreds of servers, that kind of stuff. And it's not so easy to change it. What I'm missing in all these discussion about the RPA, there is not much discussion about change management. [00:07:00] There is much discussion on, we will come and provide you with a solution in two weeks, six weeks, whatever. You need to move your people upstream, whatever that means because of the [inaudible 00:07:12], but nobody's talking much about monitoring it and providing the proper change management. And if you go into change management and you see that you've got to deal with technology, people, communication, risks, finance, et cetera ... for entire project, business continuity, [00:07:30] then it pumps up the thing. So I don't think it's fast. Well it takes time.

Seth Adler:  Certainly, not quite as fast as we'd like it to be. Not quite as inexpensive as we'd like it to be, right? A bit of an iceberg. We're only showing the tip here. We've got to really talk about truly the change management that's going to happen and all of the departments that are going to be involved. How long and how much it's going to take out of the enterprise to put this in?

Marcin Nowakowski:  [00:08:00] Well it depends on the project. For simple things, which are not cross-departmental or cross-countries, you can do it relatively fast, if you use the technology which is at hand and which you know how to use it. And it won't have a huge impact most probably-

Seth Adler:  Right-

Marcin Nowakowski:  In the things which are cross-departmental, cross-country, global, then it might have impact in X number of countries and thousand number of people, and then you really need change management to manage it properly [00:08:30] and take your time to do it properly.

Seth Adler:  Right. And we didn't even talk about customer facing yet, right?

Marcin Nowakowski:  No.

Seth Adler:  All right, so then let's just make sure we understand you a little bit more. You're from Poland?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yep.

Seth Adler:  Where in Poland?

Marcin Nowakowski:  I'm based in Warsaw. I've got a global role, but based in Warsaw.

Seth Adler:  Okay, based in Warsaw, but where are you from though?

Marcin Nowakowski:  I'm from [Czestochowa 00:08:47], which is a South city of Poland.

Seth Adler:  Okay. So if I know that Krakow is in the South, right?

Marcin Nowakowski:  It's 80 km from Krakow, yeah.

Seth Adler:  Pretty close.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah.

Seth Adler:  All right. And we spoke about the fact [00:09:00] that my girlfriend's from [Lodz 00:09:01], right? So that's fantastic. What was it like, growing up in the town that you grew up in?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well, it's a challenging question. It's been a zillion years ago.

Seth Adler:  It's not been that long, looking at you, it hasn't been that long, but you do seem like a learned person that is actually an adult and to tap back into that childhood mindset, I would imagine would be difficult.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah, it is difficult. [00:09:30] I think it was very close with my family. So lots of interactions, big family and lots of interactions with my cousins and brothers and-

Seth Adler:  How many kids in the family, in the nuclear?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Quite a lot of kids in the family, usually like, my parents would have brothers and sisters and all of them would have two, three kids. So a big family and grandparents. Very nice family time-

Seth Adler:  Everybody around? Everybody lived around the same place?

Marcin Nowakowski:  For many years, yes. So you would have, you would imagine like Christmas together-

Seth Adler:  [00:10:00] Sure-

Marcin Nowakowski:  And Easter together. That's kind of nice pictures, but I was usually ... I remember myself as a [inaudible 00:10:11] person. So rather introverted, like to play with Lego or something like this, rather than team sports.

Seth Adler:  Yeah, then all this noise over here, forget about it. I'll be over here, doing my own thing.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah. Yeah.

Seth Adler:  That's fair.

Marcin Nowakowski:  And then started working quite [00:10:30] early during secondary school.

Seth Adler:  Sure, me too-

Marcin Nowakowski:  So-

Seth Adler:  What were your initial jobs?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well, farming.

Seth Adler:  Aha.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Farming sheep and crops and that kind of stuff.

Seth Adler:  What was the key, right? So you're what ... 15, 18-ish, right?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah.

Seth Adler:  So what's the key in farming, if you're a guy that's like 16, 17 years old? What do you have to make sure to do and not do?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well, for my love, for sure it's [00:11:00] move out of your city. Go abroad. Live abroad. Cook your own meals. Do your washing. That kind of stuff. That's how you learn the real life. Earn your money-

Seth Adler:  Yeah-

Marcin Nowakowski:  That's-

Seth Adler:  So you didn't do farming at home?

Marcin Nowakowski:  No, no. I went to-

Seth Adler:  Where did you ... Yeah?

Marcin Nowakowski:  I went for a ... I embarked for a student exchange and war program in Finland.

Seth Adler:  Aha.

Marcin Nowakowski:  So I left the country for several years, for several months a year. And then joined student exchange [00:11:30] programs in Scandinavia.

Seth Adler:  Did you learn Finnish?

Marcin Nowakowski:  No, that's almost as impossible as learning Polish.

Seth Adler:  So then you-

Marcin Nowakowski:  Few words.

Seth Adler:  Did you speak in English?

Marcin Nowakowski:  English-

Seth Adler:  Yeah-

Marcin Nowakowski:  English-

Seth Adler:  I learned when I was in Finland, that there is not the word for please. Or is there not the word for thank you?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Nope. There is thank you.

Seth Adler:  There is thank you.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Kiitos. Yeah.

Seth Adler:  So there was no please. And I thought to my ... 'Cause I wanted to know, how do I say please? They said, "We don't have this word."

Marcin Nowakowski:  Okay.

Seth Adler:  Yeah, I might be wrong. I'll go check, [00:12:00] right?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah, we need to check. We need to check. Yeah.

Seth Adler:  But Finland and then other stops as well, is what you're saying? Other countries too or no?

Marcin Nowakowski:  No, no. That's Finland for quite a few years during the studies. And then I did ... I moved again from ... I didn't make my studies in my hometown, so I moved to [inaudible 00:12:18], which is another big Polish city, to do my legal studies. Again, working all the time. And then, I started working seriously and moving a bit around Poland, [00:12:30] then I've been working in Switzerland, Italy, then moved back to Poland. And now, here I am.

Seth Adler:  So you truly, you know Europe. You have worked in Europe.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah-

Seth Adler:  Right? So and you became a lawyer. You went to law school. Did you-

Marcin Nowakowski:  I went to law school. I'm qualified tax advisor. So I still have my small, small practice just for fun.

Seth Adler:  On the side?

Marcin Nowakowski:  On the side, yeah.

Seth Adler:  We call this side hustle now, [00:13:00] Marcin Nowakowski.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Okay.

Seth Adler:  Yeah. That's what you have.

Marcin Nowakowski:  I'm not sure with my English, whether I understand side hustle correctly, but-

Seth Adler:  Yeah, but you'll figure it out. You'll see-

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah, I check it.

Seth Adler:  Yeah, exactly. It used to be a side job, but now it's a side hustle because you have to keep on hustling is what you got to do.

Marcin Nowakowski:  No. Honestly, it's ... I just, I like the legal work. So it's just for pleasure.

Seth Adler:  I see.

Marcin Nowakowski:  So I would say, side pleasure.

Seth Adler:  Yeah. No, that's interesting. [00:13:30] It does a different thing for your mind, in essence. It's almost where you can bring your mind to relax in a way.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah, the sad thing is that legal profession is also getting automated and robotized and-

Seth Adler:  Oh, sure. Yeah. Do they know it yet?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Not everybody, but it's getting there.

Seth Adler:  It's coming. So what were at these initial jobs, not the farming, but the actual ... the mind jobs, that you started to pick up.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well, I started in a ... As I had this [00:14:00] tax background, legal tax background, I started in audit and in finance.

Seth Adler:  Where? What geography?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well Poland. The next jobs in finance were in Poland, in audit, rather small audit firms, not big firm. And then I moved to public audit, so auditing the state enterprises. And then I moved to private companies. And then all of a sudden, I don't know why they have chosen me. I landed as a chief accountant [00:14:30] in a big American grapeseed oil production company.

Seth Adler:  What was the name of the company?

Marcin Nowakowski:  The name of the company, it was-

Seth Adler:  Who knows?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Who remembers, but the ultimate owner is [Bunga 00:14:45], which is South American grapeseed and soy oil conglomerate.

Seth Adler:  You say, you don't know why they chose you, of course, you're being humble, right? How did you approach accounting? [00:15:00] You're a matter of fact type of person, we opened with that, right? So you're perfect for that job. What did they see beyond that, that you think they said, "We've got to have Marcin Nowakowski."

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well I think ... I'm not sure, but I think what is very transparent in my person is the change ... I'm a change person. I like change. I like delivering change. I like delivering results in change process. And I think when I look at the companies, which [00:15:30] accepted me as a employee. These were companies which were in the change process and they needed somebody who can manage both business as usual, but can go also through reinvention or realignment of the business.

Seth Adler:  Okay, so here's the question. If we've got a guy, right? Perfect mindset, very direct, very debits, credits, this all makes sense, very simple over here, plain, straightforward. [00:16:00] We got the kid playing with nobody because I don't want to deal with all that noise, right? Where does the change management thing come in? Because I feel like that's a different part of your personality that we haven't discussed yet.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well I think we are all slowly changing and learning and developing-

Seth Adler:  But why do you like it? In other words, why do you thrive in that environment?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well it's the same question, why do you like Rolling Stones or something else? You just love things. So I [00:16:30] think ... I don't think there is ... I don't like things which are repetitive every day. Let's say 50% of life can be repetitive every day, but then another 50 should change every day. That's my mindset, but that was a very interesting question because I ... when I was going through early in my career in the [inaudible 00:16:50] through the personal tests, and then later on I repeated them, I've been going through [00:17:00] introverted, extroverted positions. So it has been changing through the years and now I'm getting back into more introverted, little kid playing with Lego.

Seth Adler:  So you were introvert, went to extrovert, and then you're on your way back.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah. Yeah.

Seth Adler:  What I have learned about introvert versus extrovert is I ... My assumption has always been that I'm an extrovert. I mean look at us. I'm literally just talking to everyone that I speak to and recording it. You [00:17:30] know, you can't be much more extroverted, but I heard, the theory that it is where you get your energy. So do you get energy from being around people or is that where you're spending energy? And do you get energy from relaxing alone or is that where you spend energy?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well it's a ... I think it's a mix because looking beyond that professional life, I'm a marathon runner.

Seth Adler:  Oh, you are?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah, so that's the place where I get and spend my energy.

Seth Adler:  [00:18:00] Sure. Yeah.

Marcin Nowakowski:  So it's two in one.

Seth Adler:  Yeah, I gotcha. 26.2 miles, no matter where you are, right? That's a marathon.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yep.

Seth Adler:  This a long, long, long way to run, right?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah, especially for somebody who is 85 kilos, but-

Seth Adler:  I think I can sense what attracted you to it, but when did you find that form of running and why did you have to continue?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well it [00:18:30] was pretty early, like 20, 15 years ago. I think it's a very natural sport for somebody who enjoys his companion. So it went very natural. And then it became a challenge, like marathon was a landmark for me at some point. And then it became an addiction. And then that's it, then [inaudible 00:18:52] addicted and hooked.

Seth Adler:  How many have you done?

Marcin Nowakowski:  About 20.

Seth Adler:  20 marathons. I just think of like even [00:19:00] trying to do a half a marathon is like, it's too much. 20 marathons. How many different places have you-

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well basically Poland is ... Poland has quite a few good marathons. So did this quite vastly. Europe cover it mostly.

Seth Adler:  Yeah. What was the favorite location of yours for a marathon?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well from last ... Well the favorite, favorite marathon I did was not in Europe, it's New York, which is more than splendid.

Seth Adler:  [00:19:30] Yes. Why?

Marcin Nowakowski:  I mean the [Verazzano 00:19:33] bridge and you've got the TV, helicopters, and like 20 people on the bridge in the same moment ... Splendid. Just splendid, but then all the nice European cities, which are worth visiting, like Rome, Copenhagen, Stockholm is also nice for running. You can visit the city in three, four hours. See everything and then you are free to celebrate and dine and wine [crosstalk 00:19:57].

Seth Adler:  That's it. That's exactly it. You know exactly where [00:20:00] everything is-

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yep-

Seth Adler:  Right? You become an expert on a city.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah.

Seth Adler:  What could be wrong? What advice would you have for folks that are looking to become marathon runners? What is necessary to do this?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well accepting the imperfection because things will never be perfect. The weather or your preparation, or your diet, or how you feel, or the course, or your shoes won't be perfect. So we need [00:20:30] to accept this and get accustomed. Accepting that you are getting older and not so fast as we used to be. So lots of acceptance in this spot, but also trying to enjoy. I mean getting not only the challenge, but also the pleasure.

Seth Adler:  Each of the things that you said, this is the way that I approach my life. So I feel like, maybe ... Who would've thought it? Marathoning might be for me, right? I already have these tools or at least I'm trying to employ these tools. [00:21:00] Okay, great. I have three final questions for you. I'll tell you what they are, and then, I'll ask you them in order. What has most surprised you at work along the way? What's most surprised you in life? And on the soundtrack of your life, one track, one song, that's got to be on there? And I would imagine, it'll be a Rolling Stone song, but we'll see. First thing's first, what has most surprised you at work?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well I think I was and I'm still [00:21:30] surprised how much potential people can have, if they are properly motivated and given properly tools. So it's I think the biggest manager of successes comes from developing people, not from delivering the projects, but from developing people and seeing people grow. So this is surprising every day, how people you've treated properly and developed properly can really grow. [00:22:00] This is surprising.

Seth Adler:  Giving them the right tools ... Okay, fine. Motivating them properly, right? So there's no one way to do this, everyone's different, and you have to find the way, but what is the system there? What is the system to finding how to motivate people, in your mind?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well I think we all like freedom. So we need to ... Depending on personality, but you need material [00:22:30] amount of freedom to play with. So you can experiment and you can try things. So I would say freedom is the first thing. And also, especially in the early years, the support because then you need mentorship more and in order to accelerate your development. And you need somebody who pushes you, challenges you to practice, practice, practice, to repeat.

Seth Adler:  This is the key?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well, works for me.

Seth Adler:  How many [00:23:00] miles must you run to be ready for a marathon?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well it depends on your genotype. There are some guys who are running relatively low miles and they've got exquisite results, but I would say that you need ... In my case, like 600 km a season.

Seth Adler:  What I'm getting at, is I know the basic understanding of marathon [00:23:30] running is you don't run three marathons to prepare for the marathon. So why is that different than at work, making sure that you repeat, repeat, repeat, because once you do, you'll know?

Marcin Nowakowski:  No, it's not the French. It's the difference between repeating and learning and improving and the final situation when you should get by this repetition and improvement [00:24:00] and learning, you should get into the so-called flow feeling. And that's your final marathon. So there is lots of repeating because you repeat your exercises, you repeat your nutrition, you repeat different things in order to get this final event. So the same at work, you repeat, repeat, repeat, in order to get the flow, get things properly in the end.

Seth Adler:  Understood. So I can achieve flow state at a shorter amount of miles, but then once I've achieved that [00:24:30] flow state, then I know. I just follow that, so that I finish.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah, more or less. Yes.

Seth Adler:  Okay. This is ... We'll take the shortcut on that one, right?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yep.

Seth Adler:  What has most surprised you in life?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well the most surprising thing in life is for sure my wife, which I've never thought that somebody will so positively change my life and develop myself. So that relationship is surprising.

Seth Adler:  How long have you been with her?

Marcin Nowakowski:  10 years.

Seth Adler:  She still likes you?

Marcin Nowakowski:  [00:25:00] I don't know. You would need to ask her. We might.

Seth Adler:  You still like her though?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Oh, yes.

Seth Adler:  Yeah, right.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Oh, yes.

Seth Adler:  You said, you didn't think that someone would ... Did you say change you? You didn't say that?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yep, I think I said change-

Seth Adler:  You did say that-

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah-

Seth Adler:  What do you mean?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well you come to serious relation as one person with all your bad sides and good sides. And then you change it into something different, a relation, [00:25:30] and it works both ways. So you change the thing and the thing changes you.

Seth Adler:  Yeah.

Marcin Nowakowski:  So I've got a different set of bad sides and good sides after those 10 years.

Seth Adler:  With my girlfriend, who is Polish, as I've mentioned to you now, many times, but at least twice in this interview. Not because she's Polish, just because she is the person that I love and she loves me. The communication is [00:26:00] the ... If you don't do anything else, you have to keep communicating. You have to understand what they think and feel. And they have to understand what you think and feel, in order for it to work. Otherwise, I don't see how it can work. Is that fair?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Well it's fair. It's fair. It's sometimes difficult to understand yourself, and then to understand other person is extremely difficult, but you are learning and-

Seth Adler:  Yeah, you just got to put in the effort, I think.

Marcin Nowakowski:  You just need to practice-

Seth Adler:  Yeah, exactly. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Get into the flow state, [00:26:30] if you can.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah, yeah.

Seth Adler:  On the soundtrack of your life, one track, one song, that's got to be on there?

Marcin Nowakowski:  It would be Rolling Stones, I Can't Get No Satisfaction.

Seth Adler:  Perfect song, Marcin Nowakowski from the ... based on the conversation that we've been having-

Marcin Nowakowski:  Yeah, it's called change management.

Seth Adler:  There you go. Exactly. Of course, Exile on Main Street being the ... One of the greatest album of all time, Rolling Stones or otherwise. Would you agree?

Marcin Nowakowski:  Can you repeat?

Seth Adler:  Exile on Main Street. You [00:27:00] don't ... Oh, you have to-

Marcin Nowakowski:  I need to [crosstalk 00:27:03]. I need to learn-

Seth Adler:  Soon as we turn this off, it'll be good.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Good-

Seth Adler:  I promise. Marcin Nowakowski, thank you so much.

Marcin Nowakowski:  Thank you so much.

Seth Adler:  And there you have, Marcin Nowakowski. By repetition, improvement, and learning, you should get into that flow state. And marathon running is a very natural sport for someone who enjoys his companion, which of course is himself. So very much appreciate Marcin Nowakowski and his [00:27:30] time. Very much appreciate you and yours. Stay tuned.




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Posted: 01/02/2018